To Fred
I was going to stop posting but have decided a little more will not hurt. First there is nothing in my post that can be thought of as racist. My comment about Africa is there for two reasons, one there are very bad things going on there and we are doing very little almost nothing about it. I feel that is because there is very little oil there. Some would say it is because of racism. This nation was built upon bring together many different people and becuase of those differences we are strong. Second more then a million were killed with very low teck wepons. It went something like this the bad guys would come to a village.....first all the men would be killed defending their wives and kids. The wepons they had were useless. Their bodies would float down the river then the mothers would be killed defending their kids and their bodies would float down the river. Finally the kids would be killed and their bodies would float. This pattern continued until more then a million were killed. It only took a number of weeks or months. I bring this up to explain how meaningless the argument is that Isreal is targeting civilians. The UN, the EU, our own media, and you Fred, are trying to make a case that they are targeting civilians. It can only be racism against Jewish people that makes people say and write these things because the facts are the facts. 600 people is not targeting civilians. This is a group that shoots their wepons from people's homes. In addition, the injustice you are doing to millions killed in Aferca is disgusting.

Pat:I disagree quite strongly:Before 1776, England was a country. We were fighting for our freedom. Does that mean we were bad? Fighting for your freedom is good, not bad. If you are a state(like Israel or South Africa during Apartheid or England colonizing the 13 states,) that does not mean you are good. It means you are bad.
Incidentally, why did u forget about Jewish extremism in the list of bad guys?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fred: So "good" is relative? Stop researching "semitic" and try looking up "good".

I think that today's good-guys are free countries. They include the US, England, Israel, Australia and many others. The bad guys hate freedom. They include Islamic extremists (Iran, Syria, etc), North Korea, China, Russia, among others.

Do you disagree with this?

To Pat in IL: I'm NOT saying I'm anti-Jewish. Do NOT put words in my mouth. In a class, if you interpret 5+5=11, you are wrong. Your interpretation is wrong, not the teacher who is speaking in a class!! The mistake happened at YOUR side/the listener, not at the teacher/the source of the message.
Anyone who is anti-Jewish is JUST that, anti-Jewish, not necessarily anti-Semitic. Semitic people are those who descended from Sam, the son of Noah(remember Noah's arc in the Bible?) They are Arabs and Jews. If you criticize 1 person of your family, obviously, you are NOT criticizing your entire family.
'Universal' definitions may very much be wrong. In the past, millions of people & for thousand of years thought a 'Universal' theory that the earth was flat, not round. In the end, all of them were wrong!!
As to allowing me to redefine a concept, well, with all due respect to you (and to anyone in the entire world), I didn't ask for your permission, let alone waited for it!! If the pro-Jewish media made an equality between Jews and Semitics, it's wrong. Accordingly, if the pro-Jewish media made an equality between anti-Jewish and anti-Semitism, it's equally wrong!!!!!!
As to the good guys in the world, it depends upon the definition of 'good.' It has different meanings for different people and in the eyes of different viewers. You and myself are 2 differnet human beings with 2 different eyes viewing the 1 and same act or event. Please, don't ask me to align my eyesight with yours or to interpret actions the same way you do.
During WWII, I believe that the US was the good guy. Of course, you have the right to disagree.
Your thoughts?!!

Fred, are you saying you're anti-Jew, not anti-semitic? Every recorded definition of anti-semitism is the persecution of Jews so you might want to go a different route. Your percentage of the semite world may be correct but I won't allow you to redefine a universally understood concept. I think the mere attempt says quite a lot.

Fred, who are the good guys in the world? Who were the good guys during WWII? Are you a pure pacifist?This might help me understand you a little more.

To Pat in IL:For your information and the information of others:Anti-Jewish is NOT anti-Semitic. Jews are 5%-6% of the Semitic people. Arabs are the other 95%-94%.
To John in Westchester, IL:I sent a huge note before this one, but MSNBC did not post it(freedom of speech at its best!!) I hope they'll allow this 1.
The price of gas in LA is equal to that in Chicago. Had Israel not existed/we did not support it, most probably the price of a gallon would be less, by far. No need to remind you Israel has no Oil!!
You claim that 'poor' Israeli army, it only killed 600 in Lebanon. Do you think killing more is better?!!!!!!!I hope not, then the Nazis will be the best in the entire world.
You mention that African tribes kill with knives and more than Israel did with its sophisticated weapons. What do you have against Africans, they are human beings like you and me, if not better. If someone is bad/commits a crime, that's because he's bad/murderer, not because of his race/color. No connection between the two. Of course, if you are good, that's because you are good, not because of your color/race. No connection between the two. Bad could be associated with blacks and whites, Jews and non-Jews, F-16's or knives. Of course, the opposite is true about good.
For some reason, you don't pay full attention to everything I write. I always said:BOTH sides are terrorists. Katyushas are bad/weapon of terror. 155mm howitzers/napalm/cluster bombs are bad/weapon of terror. Both sides use extremism. Jewish extremisms is as bad as Muslim one, if not worse.
David Ben Gurion(not to mention Isaac Rabin, Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Netanyahu, Shimon Peres, Ehud Olmert) is a murderer, just like today's leaders of fundamentalist Muslim movements. Please, READ about the massacres of Deir Yassin in 1948 until now on national television(including 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 1996.)
Again, I wish MSNBC allowed my prior message. It had MORE info.

To:John in Westchester, IL. Your comments addressed to me were quite impressive-negatively speaking, of course.
Had Israel not existed and/or we did not support them, most probably the price of gallon would be less, by far.(FYI-the gas is not coming from Israel as it has nothing good to sell to the US.)
As to what you said about 'poor' army of Israel as they ONLY killed 600 with the best weapons, I hope you do not use killing people and civilians as a yardstick/ruler to measure performance of armies/regimes/governments/terrorists/Hagana. If you do, I guess Hitler & Stalin would be your heroes. They killed enough in the past.
Katyusha rockets fired by Hezbollah kill human beings, I never denied that. Likewise(I wish you would admit it too), 155mm howitzers fired by the Hagana kill human beings too(I'm sure you already know that.) No need to mention cluster, napalm and other weapons these Jewish terrorists in the Hagana have been using. Don't forget the massacres of 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982 and until now. Israel's score is getting up there; I just hope they'll not outperform Hitler and his nazi followers and Stalin and his KGB followers.
As to what you mention that the Israelis should learn killing from tribes in Africa, I hope you don't have a racist view of Africans. They're human beings like you and me. Their color/race does NOT make them inferior to the terrorists of the Hagana or you and me as white people. I hope you'll not send your son to learn the art of killing, either in Africa or from the Hagana. If Africans are killing, that's because they are bad, not because they Africans or black. If you are good, that's because you are good, not because you are white.(Hitler, Stalin, Ben Gurion, Isaac Rabin, Ariel Sharon, Ehud Olmert, Gold Meir, Shimon Peres and Ehud Olmert were ALL white.)Don't forget the murder rate in Chicago and LA is equally bad. African tribes do not kill in the name of the Bible as the Jewish terrorists in the Hagana do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In my prior posting I always said:BOTH are terrorists. I hope you'll admit that.
Believe me, unless we oppose Israel, the price of a gas of gallon will continue to rise-our stupidity and our fault, not that of the oil rich countries in the Middle East.
Your thoughts?!!

One who complains of disproportion is one whose team is getting its butt kicked.

I've always wondered how something as horrible as the Holocaust could take place. After reading through these posts and the seething anti-semitism, it's a lot easier to understand.

Hatred of Israel and Jews trumps the glaring atrocities performed by Islamic fascists. Wow.

To Fred,

Fred, you insinuate that 9/11 happened because of our support for Israel. This week the terrorist Zawahiri asked all Muslims to attack Israel. He stated, "The al Qaeda organization will not stay silent regarding what the Muslims in Palestine and Lebanon are facing".

This newly declared war on Israel by Al Qaeda certainly doesn't reconcile with your insinuation that 9/11 was the result of our support for Israel.

You're correct, they didn't attack Tokyo....yet. Why did Muslims just attack India?

The attackers around the world are always Islamic fascists while they continually attack a wide array of victims of every creed and nationality. You see this yet somehow point the finger at the US and Israel. Did it ever occur to you that maybe the problem is their interpretation of the Koran?

Besides, you show your true colors by calling Israel "DIRTY". I imagine your not a big fan of the Jews, huh?

To all there are many postings on this site and it has taken me a long time to read a majority of them. I have found a few that i would like to recommend everyone read. An individual by the name of Larez Anaimashaum wrote at least three posting July 17 2006 6:17:04, July 16 2006 1:11:07 PM , July 15 2006 6:28:28PM that are worth everyone reading. They speak of the need of Arab governments standing up and and stopping what is happening. They also mention how this hate is being spread to areas of the world no one seems to care about. I will not even try to paraphrase because i will do the words injustice. Not to mention my spelling is so poor the points could be missed. If I could write so well maybe even Fred in LA could be swayed. Oh well, this has been my first trip into writing my thoughts on the internet and reading what others think. I have learned alot.

Hi Fred, today i filled up my car and gas was 3.25 per gallon in Chicago. I buy the cheap stuff. How much is gas in LA? We are involved in the middle east becuase there is oil there. In addition, we are there becuase, because of the oil, many of these nations have great wealth that can be used in negetive ways with the wrong people in charge. The US has had a policy of backing who ever was in power and we could get on our side. This approach is changing to supporting demorcacy in the feeling that a more representive government although still anti US will have more important things to do then turning that great wealth against us. Even in the nations we are selling f 15's to we are pushing for more representive governments.
You and i will not agree on Isreal but i wonder their militery must be very poorly trained if they are using cluster bombs in civilions and killing so few. Lets see 600 in Lebanon and 140 in Gaza and the west bank. That would make it safer for you and i to spend the last two weeks over there under Isreal attack rather then spend a year in chicago or LA. I think the murder rates are about the same in these two cities. My point is this Isreal like the US is held to a higher standard where war is concerned. Hazbellah can fire rockets who's only purpose is to kill cilvians and you do not even mention it. Isreal's military must be pretty poor bacause anytime in the past when cilivans were targeted in major cities large numbers were killed. Isreal is useing some of the best wepons on the earth and can not manage to kill more the 600 people in two weeks. There are some tribes in Aferca that could teach them how to kill millions with only knifes. Notice we are not in Aferca, they do not have as much oil.

Friends,

You can quote or recite any verses from the Koran & the Bible. But not from the Talmud. Your post will definitely not approve. You will be label:
"ANTI-SEMITISM" even though this apartheid nation is:
"ANTI-HUMAN-BEING" If you have access to the www check it out yourselves and you will know what i mean.

To John in Westchester, IL:Apparently, you take 'info.' from US media only, most of which are harmonized/synchronized with the melodies of Israel.
Had Israel not existed, none of this funny stuff would be happening!! No one would be hurting or trying to hurt us in this country. Did you ever stop to think that NY was attacked, not Tokyo!! Think of the reason: Our support to Israel. Our politicians want the support of Israel's lobby(AIPAC). Please, read the famous book 'They Dare To Speak Out' for the former member of Congress The Honorable Paul Findley. Read the book 'Assault On The Liberty' by James Ennes(1 of the Navy officers on board the ship that was attacked in June, 1967). He said that the CIA knew of Israel's attack against the ship BEFORE it happened. Officers on board the ship heard early reconnaissance flights by low/slow flying Israeli planes IDENTIFYING it as an American ship & reporting back to Israeli air force bases/commanders that it was a US Navy ship. Israel claims they 'mistook' the Navy ship for an Egyptian frigate!!!The incidents/instances of Israel's anti-American behavior are COUNTLESS. I'll need 10 years to list 1% of them(MSNBC's site wouldn't be enough.) By the way, Israel is not an ally. Do every effort to take that weirdo idea out of your mind. Again, look 'terror' or 'terrorism' in your dictionary to know that Israel is involved in this activity, not to mention its spies in almost every service(army, air force, navy, marines) in this country. Israel has broken UN resolutions MORE than any other country in the entire world. Human Right Watch(this morning) just announced that Israel used Cluster bombs in shelling civilians.
If you want to invoke Biblical reasons for helping Israel, don't forget billions of Christians believe/read in the Bible. Palestinian Christians can not go back to their homes/villages in Palestine!!! Israel/the Jewish side in this conflict do not have any respect for the Christian portion of the 'Judeo-Christian' heritage you listen to in the media. They only respect the Jewish portion of that heritage. The people of this country have been the victims of a movie/symphony on national media for the past century that Israel is good and its neighbors are bad. Sure, I wouldn't deny its neighbors are bad, but Israel is WORSE.
If you want to invoke democracy to support Israel, Lebanon is a democracy. Accordingly, we should sell Lebanon 155mm howitzers, F-16's, F-15's, smart bombs and nuclear weapons. Do you want that?(I guess you don't!!) Other middle Eastern countries do NOT have democracy, yet we sell them F-15's(Saudia Arabia.)
When Saddam invaded Kuwait, he did not hurt us. Why did we go to fight him, because Israel wanted to. LIbya's crazy Kaddafi was a bad guy until he dismantled his nuclear program. Overnight, he became a good guy and the US media stopped criticizing him and his regime!!(In my book, he's still a bad guy.) If israel wants to fight him, it should do it on its own.(Remember the 1981 incident when Navy F-14's shot down some his air planes!!)
Bottom line:LET THE DIRTY ISRAEL DO IT OWN DIRTY WORK, WITHOUT any $ from us in this country. Stop ALL(economic and military) to Israel. Terrorism can be in the form of armed guerrillas wearing dirty clothes. Likewise, it's in the form of STATE terrorism wearing organized/clean uniforms of the Israeli army/navy/air force. The Nazis and the SS had the best uniforms in the world. Were they good? Obviously not. Do not think that if Israel is a state that it's a good one!! The Nazis had a state of their own in Germany. It was not a good one. Let the terrorists in the middle East fight/bite/kill each other. There are people who are hungry on the streets in almost every city/town in this country, don't you think we should help them BEFORE helping Israel?!!
Cordially Yours!!

To Fred, LA, CA
You cannot make these fans of Israel understand simple logic but hats off to you for trying.

To all those who speak of the US and its support of anyone who supports their agenda. I agree that that is what has gotten us in a lot of troble when you look at history. Iran is a great example and there are many others. Much of the mess in Aferca is directly related to the end of the cold war. That said during the cold world it was very commen as both sides tried to influnce countries to their side. Things are changing......and the US can be influnced by demorcratic governments and doing what is right. The risk of a full blown world war is far less then it was 25 years ago thus we all are safer. Even with this relize the government of the US has a responsibility to act in the best intrests of its people. Europe acts that way all the time as they strugle to get out of the shadow of the US and form a central government.

Fred my first responce was a bit long and involved views that went beyound this topic. For whatever reson it was not posted. To make my points simple it works like this we have invested in Isreal. Iran wants to hurt us. Hazbellah has killed more Americans then any group (not counting 9/11). They hate us and want to hurt us. With our investment in Isreal and their want and need to fight why not support them? At this point what do we have to lose. Respect of the world? Gee most would not care what happens to us. Even our so called friends in Europe were paid off with Iraq oil to vote against us. Isreal is a very powerful friend and supporting them makes since.

To anonymous:It u want me to stay off this board as it's non of our business; by the same logic we stay on this board as it's our business to make sure Iran does not develop these weapons. By the same logic, it's our business to stay on this board & disarm the Hagana of its nuclear arsenal. You don't want these weapons to be in the hands of terrorists, would you?
There are more millions of people around Israel who are terrorized by Israel and its Hagana and its weapons than there are Israelis terrorized by their neighbors. Won't you agree?
Cordially Yours!! Fred, LA, CA.

To anonymous-I hate Israel, not Jews. The people of Sweden(Christians and Jews) should live in Sweden. I will say the SAME words about Swedish Christians, if they want to occupy Palestine. As to twisting history, telling that BOTH sides are terrorists is not twisting history. It's facts. If you have access to a dictionary, look up the word 'terrorism' and you'll arrive at the conclusion that BOTH sides are terrorism.
As to what you said that 'Christians forgive', when the US fought the Nazis, do you think the US was wrong?!!!!!!! Do you think we should have stayed out of the war and said "Let's forget the bad Nazis?!!!!!!!!!" Please, wake up. Being a Christian does not mean you should not fight for your country. Again, I would say the same words about Swedish Christians as Swedish Jews; Indian Hindus as Indian Jews.
Cordially Yours, Fred.

Hey Fred,

If it's none of our business, then why do stay on this board, trying to make sure more and more people hate Jews? Again, Christians who read the words of Jesus, and believe them to be true, do not foment hatred. They forgive their enemies. And stop telling everyone to "wake up!" Why don't you wake up? If you cared about the Palestinians at all, as you pretend to do, you wouldn't want Iran to bomb the area either. And if you wanted peace, you would stop attacking people who post in support of either peace or Israel. But you don't want peace, you just hate Jews and will do and say anything to help others hate them too. And that's exactly the problem Israel has - they are surrounded by people like you, who twist history into lies and encourage violence instead of peace.

To Jon
Thanks for uderstanding the dilemma of the Muslims. The biggest problem is that Americans have different standards for Muslim countries. They would support a monarch if it suits them, they would support democracy where they feel that elected government would not dare to defy them and they would help a tyrant military dictator if he is willing to follow the American agenda. An ordinary Muslim simply has no voice. In some Muslim countries you can be killed (or worse) for speaking against the government. These fanatic groups also kill people who have difference of opinion with them. These fanatics/ extremists/ terrorists and their supporters do not constitute even one percent of the Muslim population. The injustices by Israel and the west (including USA) will however help them in multiplying their numbers. ( A case in point is the current Israeli offensive against Lebanon. Do you think these terrorists will have any problem in recruiting people from the frustrated Lebanese refugees?) Please wake up. Blaming Islam or any other religion would not help. If you want to end terrorism end injustices in the world which fuel these terrorist groups.

To Robert from Southern California
Thank you for your artilcle. I hope it will serve to open the eyes of all those who support Israel blindly.
Israel is the worst human-rights violator in the world. By terrorizing its neighbours, it has made them a breeding ground for hate and terror. When its enemies cannot fight it in open warfare (because of extreme imbalance of weaponary -- thanks to USA), what other option are they left with. Shame on all those who think that blowing oneself to kill others is terrorism while in the same breath they talk about using nuclear weapons against Iran and other Arab countries. Is this sort of attitude acceptable? Can we get anywhere near finding a solution to the Middle East problem by practicing such double standards. Please tell me could any other country in the world would have gotten away with destroying another weaker country, the way Israel is doing to Lebanon??? If an innocent Lebanese citizen who has lost his family in Israeli attaks ties bombs around himself and blows himself in an Israeli town, would this be terrorism? How many of you would not like to do the same if their near and dear ones are harmed?
The problem is that the message that Israel (and US) want to send to the Palestinians and the Arabs is that we have every right to kill you, to humiliate you and you have to accept that with a smile. I am sorry superiority in might cannot be used to tell others what to believe in and what to think.

To whoever posted on July 24th at 112902 AM in responce to APhilips. You talk of blind support of Isreal when the US has brokered peace in the middle east between Iseral and some of its neighbors. Isreal giving back land each time. Land won in war in which Isreal was not the agressor. Now after giving up more land in Gaza and Lebanon we are at this point. Hazballha and Hamas their armed whings have to go. Lebonon you have no idea how close you are to real peace you are. Syria is gone, Isreal left and all that is left is to get these nuts off the border with Isreal. Democarcy you speak of could it be you are a Bush supprter. Is not that the approach the US is taking in the middle east. Is not being part of a democracy what is giving Hazbellah and Hamas huge problems. Is not the US taking a huge risk in Iraq supporting the side that supports Iran just because they are the majority. Talk about a gamble Bush is taking in the name of democrocy. If he is sucessful "peace" if not more Americans die. It is what they call leadership. World leadership.

To John in Westchester, IL. Why are you that much concerned if Iran uses such weapons against Israel? I understand and fully agree with your concerns if these weapons were used agains us here in this country. But would you lose any sleep about Israel?
Israel is an allie, IN THE MEDIA ONLY. It has no oil to sell us, phosphate, zinc, cupper...etc. It has NOTHING. Forget about our 'moral commitment' to Israel. It's a funny CD they play in national media. Our foreign policy is to go after what's good for us and our economy. Israel has been a burdern on our economy BY FAR MORE THAN THE MARSHALL PLAN to save Europe after WWII.
The Problem is that the US will go after countries developing nuclear weapons, EVEN IF THEY ARE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES. It's non-of our business. Wake up, Israel WAS/IS/WILL NOT BE OUR ALLIE. They are murdering innocent Palestinians in Gaza using 155 mm howitzers. The Nazis murdered people in CLOSED concentration camps. Israelis are doint it in the OPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WAKE UP.

The moderate muslims who can repsond to these fanatics are either in jail or political asylees in Europe or the US.
This middleast crisis should be a lesson to Bush and future presidents. If US govts keep supporting arab govts that are not democratic then the consquences are continouis trouble in the middleast. I believe if you have a fair peace agreement between Palestanians and Israeli and democratic and prosperous middleast then you will eliminate and thus far eliminate terror

Ok so if the muslim religion has been hijacked by extremist, then why hasn't the muslim communtity worldwide stepped in to save face of thier religion. Are true muslims afraid or have they said something and I didn't hear about it.